Theism vs Atheism

https://www.quora.com/How-do-antitheists-justify-their-belief-that-there-is-no-God/answer/Autymn-Castleton

I’m not an atheist, at best I was a Deist. As I did more research on the supernatural, I found out that most likely it existed and it did interfere with humanity. So, no more Deism heh. At least, not in an objective Clockwork that doesn’t care about humans. Then the next question is “why does a superior entity care about humans”.

After going to Bible collegeand coming to the startling realization that the Bible is terribly flawed and could not be the inspired, inerrant work of God, I had to face an even greater question. If the Bible is not a revelation of God, what is? Is there another way to know God? Is there even reason to conclude, outside of the Bible, that there is a God? Does God exist? Can God exist? Could any God, not necessarily just the God of the Bible exist? Is it possible for an intelligent being to precede everything else that exists? Is God, as first cause, a logical argument? Some would say that it is illogical to believe that any matter could ever exist without a creator. Some would say that the ordered universe that we observe today could not exist without design. This chapter will be devoted to these questions.

This passage, by an atheist I suppose, is well argued although it requires a rather high literate IQ to understand. I will only address certain logical points in it, but it might be worth reading all of it.

On a smaller scale, I had a friend who was trying to demonstrate the order and design in nature by pointing to various examples of what she called perfection in nature. She said “Look at the miracle of childbirth.” I asked her to consider all of the birth defects that occur naturally in humans, the product of some transcription error in the DNA.

Fair enough. I would counter point out that the Watchers had already changed human DNA during the time of Jared. Before Noah… when all flesh had become corrupted, remember that. Perhaps when the angels mated with human women, DNA errors could be transcribed, did they think of that one?

Where is perfection in nature? It does not exist. Our perceptions of order are merely products of our environment. That is why what might be orderly conduct in one culture becomes disorderly conduct in another culture. Order and chaos are subjective terms.

It is not surprising that Marx and the atheists, often stick to materialism. If they want perfection, they won’t find it here on this earth. That is because this Earth cannot be perfected until humans get “fixed”. That “subjective” term might also apply to men and women, good and evil, justice and injustice, or wealth. This is why Marxism often is the religious dogmatic cult of the atheist or vice a versa.

What about more intricate natural objects? What about people and animals? Don’t they by their sheer intricacy and man’s inability to duplicate them require a designer? A college level biology class would reveal that these organisms are produced with time and countless repetitions of basic chemical reactions. Organisms are not designed to be a certain way. They are that way because the environment has rewarded some arrangements of molecules with survival and punished others with extinction. If you can’t accept that we are nothing more than that, if you must believe that we are incredible, special beings, then consider this. If there did exist a being who was capable of designing a creature like man, with all of the alleged complexity and intricacy that proponents of this theory point out, would this being not be even more complex and intricate than man? If God is so much wiser and greater than man, wouldn’t that make him, as a being, even more complex and intricate than man? If the argument holds that complexity and intricacy and form and function are all characteristics of design, wouldn’t God then, display characteristics of design? Wouldn’t God’s existence, by virtue of that same argument, be dependant upon a designer? It is an endless argument. God as the necessary designer could not exist without an infinite line of preceding designers. That argument is dead.

Author is getting hotter and closer… What he calls god, is Yeshua or Yehovah. Or by extension, the omniscient and omnipotent Most High, used a divine counsel of entities to create heaven and Earth. Let “us” create. That us may be the trinity, but it is more likely that it includes the entire divine counsel of plural entities. If mankind is not special, then you are just a slave and proper cog of the State. You are weaker and no better than the State, after all. But if you are special, then the author gets close, but not quite there. The omniscient one designed Yeshua’s powers, but not his eternal intelligence or spirit. The Elohim (gods) creates bodies, but nowhere does it state that they created the personality and spirits of old. Even in ancient pagan religions, they often don’t state this. Cause and effect creates that “infinite line of preceding designers”. Once you get unstuck from the box of human stupidity, people might realize that “cause and effect” only affect low order entities. When you are outside of time and space, you are not affected by “cause and effect” because there is no cause, and there is no effect. Or rather, you are both at once. The Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. Yeshua calls himself the Alpha Omega, after his deification from mortal form. So what is the omniscient omnipotent original? Is he also the Alpha and Omega? Why are there two ALpha Omegas, while the other spiritual angels are inferior and weaker? We’ll get to that.

The more intriguing question is this: could there have been an intelligent being capable of creating before there was any matter? I say no, absolutely not. Here’s why. Creation and design would require intelligent, organized thought. Organized thought requires a language of some sort. When most Americans think, we think in English. When most Russians think it occurs in Russian. We think with words because we have learned to use words, audible sounds, to represent objects, places or ideas. When an English speaking person hears the word “spoon” it conjures up the idea associated with that sound, a spoon.
But what about those people who can’t hear? How do they think without ever having heard words? They use imagery. They associate images with objects and ideas much the same way hearing people associate sounds with objects, places or ideas. But what about those who can’t see or hear? They are certainly capable of thought. Helen Keller is a remarkable example of that. They rely on touch, smell and even taste to communicate ideas. We all use our senses, all of the time, to identify objects or ideas. Without our senses we would have no language. We would have never heard a word, seen an image, felt an object, smelled a rose or tasted a thing. In short, we could not know anything.
What if we had all of our senses, but there was no matter? That is the environment one would have to imagine a creator in. If God created all matter, then initially he would have existed out of time and space in an environment with zero stimuli. He could never have heard a noise, because there was no air for sound waves to travel in and nothing or no one to make a noise. He could never have seen anything, because there was nothing to see and no light to illuminate anything. He could never have touched anything because there was nothing to touch, nothing to smell, nothing to taste. There was nothing.
In a state of total sensory deprivation, how could there have been a language, of any kind, to produce thought? You say that God never needed sensory input to know anything or to have the capacity for thought? He just knew everything? There was nothing to know! What could God have thought about? Nothing existed. Could he think about himself since he existed? In relation to what? Could he consider himself holy? Compared to whom? Could he consider himself mighty? Compared to what? Could he consider himself wise? Compared to whom?
Some have said that matter could not exist without God. I say that God could not exist without matter. Without matter there is no context for thought. There is no sensory input. Without sensory input there can be no language. Without language there can be no organized thought. Without organized thought there could be no creator.

This edges close to the core of Wisdom and Divine Truth, but again the author slides right away before reaching the conclusion. The questions are pivotal, but without the Holy Ghost upgrade, they cannot reach through the Veil.

The human soul can be considered the union of Mind and Body. Or Mind/Spirit and Body. That means the two powers of heaven, Yeshua and Yehovah, the Father and Son, both have a body. The spiritual dimension existed before the material one. Yeshua, Jesus, was said to be the Word, and this Word created the earth and heavens. The solution isn’t all that weird. If an entity with the powers of creation, was lacking in things to sense and taste, then all he had to do was think “I want to experience more”, and “more” will be created according to their knowledge and power. Notice the philosophy at work here. Superior entities cannot have created what we use today because they need sensory input. But biological organisms can self code in upgrades because they have sensory organs. What about before they had sensory organs? The same problem applies to evolution in the creation of species.

Yehovah knew that other things could exist because of Yeshua, his son and heir. When you know something other than “you” exist, then it is easy to create other things that are not “you”. And until those others become “like you”, they are not your equals. And thus the “Plan of Salvation” can be planned out on the spiritual “digital simulation plane”, before we get to matter and energy. Since those other entities are “not like you”, they need to work on a world that they can understand, a lower world, like one made out of limited dimensions, energy, and matter. Btw, there is no such thing as matter, given the Standard Model of Quantum Mechanics. Matter becomes non existent once you reduce observation to below Plankt length. Quantum effects are “spooky”. Quantum entanglement is reminiscent of why Yehovah is Yeshua and Yeshua Yehovah. Two entities as one.

One god creating things from imagination is difficult. Two gods or more than two… then it becomes easy. Monotheism? That was created by humans, centuries after 1st century AD. The Divine Counsel has been a Hebrew staple since Deuteronomy 32 and Psalm 82 NIV. Read them if you dare. They are shorter than the link.

Creation requires a point of origin in time. There must have been a time when something did not exist before it can be said that it was created. There must have been a point in time when the idea for something had not been conceived to accurately describe it as being designed. I cannot make a coffee cup and take credit for inventing it because I already knew what it was and how it functions. My prior knowledge of coffee cups prevents me from creating the concept and taking credit as its designer. At most, I can take the existing idea and materialize it. The Bibles description of God as omniscient, eternal and unchanging prevents God from taking credit for inventing the universe, for creating the concept, or for the design of the universe because he would have had prior knowledge of it. So, you see, it is quite impossible to place an intelligent, thinking, creative being before matter.

If Yehovah was the omniscient and omnipotent one, and Yeshua was just the entity chosen to assume mortal form of energy to enforce the plan, then the person that created the plan is not the same person who executed it. Proper division of labor. Yehovah created C++, and Yeshua created Crusader Kings 2 using C++. That means if Crusader Kings 2 was given to a people that didn’t know C++, they would still be able to run it, but they would say that this is impossible to create, as the designer would have to have prior knowledge of the C++ programming language. If he had prior knowledge of C++, then he can’t take credit for creating Crusader Kings 2. So, you see, it is quite impossible to place an intelligent, human origin for C++, before the creation of CK2. C++ must have coded itself or have always existed.

It isn’t hard to make fun of human thinking. It is sort of like ants thinking they can build more than humans can. To be serious, this author’s material is near the “summit” of human thinking, but it is far inferior to the divine wisdom. Humans have a hard time thinking outside the box they were born in. If you have prior knowledge of what a “book” is, you have no ownership of that book you just wrote, because you knew about it before and thus your book is in no way your own creation. But do humans actually behave the same as their logic leads them? No. Cause they would lose money doing it… just like Marxists would lose money if those like Ayers gave up their mansions and wealth.

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