Culture Wars: The One Man Army

I filtered these particular conversation from Rose’s blog comments for one reason: as an example of our times. Read the conversation after the link and if you wish to read all of the comments surrounding this argument, including my little modest contributions, click on the link above.

Stephen said…

Until America takes the moral high ground and renounces the use of brute military force to insure American hegemony in other people’s lands, we cannot say we are better than the worst of our targeted enemies.

Rose said…

Stephen, you sound like Connie Stewart, who pronounced at a City Council meeting that Bush ran around the world killing little brown people. The fundamental lack or either understanding or acknowledgement that it is in fact MUslim extremists killing little brown people, and black people and white people that is the cause of the conflict.

Of all the conflicts in the world right now, all but one involve Muslim extremists killing people.

You can let them run rampant, and pretend they won’t chop off your head if given the opportunity, and look the other way as the stone teenage girls to death for having a boyfriend. You have a daughter. Imagine her fate under Islamic rule.

Remember Time magazine’s coverage of the situation in Afghanistan? Musicians had to bury their instruments in the sane lest they be killed for possessing them under Taliban rule. Men were killed for listening to music.

You want that kind of life?

It is wrong no matter where or when it occurs.

Saddam took money given by the international community for antibiotics for his people and used it to build palaces with solid gold faucets, and pursue weapons that would blow up his neighbors.

You would forget or forgive that?

Worse. You would blame it on Bush.

You may not mind bowing to mecca at noon. Maybe the women you know would not mind wearing a burkha and never being seen as a human being again as long as they shall live.

I refuse to go there. And, in your life as a rebel, you really do show that you certainly would never go there either, no matter what the rhetoric of the day is.

You don’t want people telling you what to do, what to say, what to think, who to care about, what to believe in – why would you be tolerant of a religion and a country that refuses to grant those things to any human being.

Stephen said…

Rose, I don’t kow tow to anyone on earth. You are an extremist in your opinions and I can’t change that but I can point out your gross hypocrisy and others posting here where you refuse to look at the statistics of our part in killing innocent Muslims and taking control of their lands, something that has been going on since the end of the Ottoman Empire.

How many Iraqis were killed by Bush Sr.’s war, Rose? How many Iraqis have been killed by Bush Jr.’s war, Rose? Do you even know?
How many Vietnamese were killed by Johnson and Nixon? How many brown-skinned people does it take to be killed by Americans under white presidents before it registers that perhaps Americans and you have a racist streak that cannot see brownskinned people’s deaths unless they die by the hands of Muslim fanatics?

America’s hands are bloody all over place, Rose, going to war conveniently against the Muslim nation with the largest oil reserves and kow towing to another one by supporting a corrupt royalty that spends money like water on whims of spoiled rich men while their countrymen and women watch all their oil money being spend on lavish palaces while nothing is being saved for future generations of Saudis, and you support these people without a squeak of protest because Republican Bushes did?

If American political leaders had not been so greedy to control Middle East oil supplies and impose the European Jewish colony of Israel on Arab Muslim majority Palestine, you would not have ever seen the rise in power of Muslim extremists. They are created as a Reaction to Western extremists, greedy oil men, greedy Congressmen, greedy Zionists, who have literally invaded Muslim nations in order to seize control for the benefit of Western nations.

So, as long as Americans produce these invaders of the Middle East they can expect a violent response.

You want mellow Muslims? You have to stop messing with their world and start to act like decent human beings. Decency is responded to by Muslims. Invasion and control are also responded too. You have to choose the high road, Rose, if you want to see Muslims at peace with the world. Please remember your Christian history in which it wasn’t all that long ago Christians themselves were outdoing Muslim atrocities all across Europe, the Americas, Australia, and Africa.

Stephen said…

Sorry for you, Rose, you don’t read the statistics at all it seems, just keep going with your bigoted opinions in the face of FACT: for every Israeli killed 4 or 5 Palestinians are killed. For every Israeli child killed 4 or 5 Palestinian children are killed. And do you understand why cluster bombs have been outlawed?

Please, stop with your propaganda against Palestinians and recognize social justice for once. You wouldn’t want Chinese invading California would you? Well, neither do Palestinians want New York Jews, Russian Jews invading and taking over their country. The only reason you swallow Israel’s propaganda is because you refuse to look at the Other Side of issue. Until you do, I can only point out your gross hypocrisy of wanting peace for Israelis but none for Palestinians–they can be occupied until kingdom comes as far as you’re concerned. 60 years of occupation serves ’em right for being brown-skinned low tech natives in the way of poor European Jewish refugees who Europeans and Americans unilaterally decided needed their land to assuage European guilt by making Palestinians pay for that guilt.

Stephen said…

For the record, I am of Jewish ancestry, the majority of my Jewish ancestry is Polish so I too had relatives who died in the Jewish holocaust, but check it out, there are thousands of us anti-Zionist Jews, thousands who stand with Palestinian resistance fighters against Zionist fascist invaders and occupiers. Sooner or later all of you will wake up to the fact that resistance to invasion is a very legitimate cause and those labeling such resistance fighters, “terrorists” when their families are being bombed with white phosphorus, children maimed with cluster bombs are only exposing themselves as total frauds, total hypocrites using propaganda to mask very evil acts against innocent peoples.

Rose said…

And for the record, just as I defend Geert Wilders right to speak freely, so do I defend your right, Stephen.

You are correct. Innocent people are dying.

We just do not agree on the cause of the violence. Or on the solution.

You cannot deny that, if left alone, Israel will not be bombing anyone.

Did you not hear the reports of how carefully they have tried to avoid civilian casualties? Leaflets warning people – and what to the Palestinians do? when the air raid sirens sound? Send the women and children up on the roof. So the Israeli’s started setting off a blank bomb, and when the women and children ran, relieved to have survived the ‘bomb’ – then they set off the real one, once the women and kids were free. That is extraordinary care, Stephen.

Look, if it were up to me, there wouldn’t BE any territories. We are all PEOPLE of the world. I’m not in favor of Indian reservations either, nor of separate nation status. Knock it all off.

Like I said, we have proven that people can live together. Why can’t the Palestinians work towards something positive like that for a change?

If they set down their arms, and stop the bombing, missiles, suicide/homicide bombers, they would be free to live and prosper. It is up to them. The world waits for them to come into this century.

Stephen said…

“If they set down their arms, and stop the bombing, missiles, suicide/homicide bombers, they would be free to live and prosper. It is up to them. The world waits for them to come into this century.”

No, Rose, the world is waiting for European-Americans like you to stop with the racist accusations against Third World people who are in this century right along with you and your ungodly support of killers in office like G.W. Bush who you gave a blank check to kill thousands of innocent Iraqis and hundreds of innocent Palestinians through the U.S.’s puppet colony in the Middle East, Israel.

You have no moral high ground to accuse any Palestinian of anything, Rose. Don’t you get it? Bush lost it for you and your inability to recognize the national aspirations of people is extremely prone to racism because white Europeans are in control of most of the world’s resources and weaponry whereas they are a distinct minority worldwide. Arab Muslims, Palestinians are reacting to this imbalance of power over their lives. It’s their land and we took it away from them by imposing this huge Jewish immigration on Palestine without any Palestinian consent to appease European guilt over the European Jewish holocaust. We’ve made Palestinians pay with their country and their lives for European crimes. Do you get it now? It was a crooked deal from the get go and, no, 60 years or a 100 is not going to erase the immoral way Israel was established that has cause so much damage to America’s reputation throughout the Middle East.

Rose said…

Stephen, every President in recent memory has thrown himself at the wall – how many high level Peace Summits have there been?

How many agreements forged? How many times have hopes been dashed? And by whom?

In one of the more recent agreements, where the demands were presented, and agreed to, the deal was reneged upon almost immediately.

It’s never enough. They don’t want peace. The people may. But the leaders they tolerate and even elect, do not.

I say it again, over and over and over – they must cease the aggression. Israel is not the aggressor.

If they lay down the weapons, they will not only have peace, but they could enjoy some of the same rights and living conditions that we have – maybe not under their own rulers, but certainly under Israeli rule. Peace, prosperity, creative endeavor instead of death and destruction.

Don’t lay this one on Bush. It both predates him and it will go on long after he has left office.

Stephen said…

Ok, Rose. I will say no more because you are flat out brainwashed when you can make such stupid statements as “Israel is not the aggressor”. You obviously have never taken any time to look at what Israel has taken away since 1948 from the Palestinian lesser share of the division of Palestine to make room to millions of immigrant Jews. Keep your prejudices but lose my respect because you are siding with fascists and I am not the only one calling Israeli hawks that, look at what the British Jewish MP said a few days ago on my blog as well as what most all the Middle East Arabs are also accusing Israel of being. You just do not want to give Palestinians any credit for being human beings trying to stop the Jewish genocide of Palestinian society. You want to ignore their human rights as human beings, as Palestinian citizens by accepting without question, without researching the real history of Zionists who have, since before 1947 actually, wanted to drive all non-Jewish people out of Palestine to make way for a Greater Israel, an attempt to recreate the myth of David and Solomon’s fictitious kingdoms that have no archeological evidence to show they ever existed, unlike real ancient kingdoms that have left plenty of artifacts to confirm their historical existence. Centuries of Christian acceptance of the Old Testament stories as actual history has warped many a generation of Americans and I believe this includes you because I do not understand why you would support Zionist crimes against humanity otherwise.

Rose said…

Stephen, you are my friend, and you are a good man, despite the assessments people make in reaction to your arguments regarding the Palestinians.

We don’t agree. probably never will.

However – for all the talk about BUSH killing people, BUSH’s illegitimate war, BUSH bombing a country we are not even at war with…

Well, here’s your chance to be consistent.

Obama has ordered his first airstrike. In PAKISTAN.

…“Missiles fired from suspected US drones killed at least 15 people inside Pakistan today, the first such strikes since Barack Obama became president and a clear sign that the controversial military policy begun by George W Bush has not changed.
Security officials said the strikes, which saw up to five missiles slam into houses in separate villages, killed seven “foreigners” – a term that usually means al-Qaeda – but locals also said that three children lost their lives. ”…

Where do you go from here? Where does eric Kirk go from here? Where do the hopenchngeybots go from here? Where’s Code Pink?

Will you finally wake up?

Stephen said…

Wake up to what, Rose? Approval of an American Zionist war against Muslims? I, like many in America and around the world are closely watching what Obama does and if he does follow Bush’s Zionist religious war against Muslims who are resisting Western takeovers, (Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq, so far,..) Obama will lose considerable support from the liberal-Left in America, in Europe and all around the world. He cannot afford to do that and keep his currency of “Hope” alive.

Rose, you are my friend too and I’m glad I can be hopping mad with your political views but still know whatever political differences we have we each will not allow those differences to stop our friendship. Yes, I am “strongly”, “fanatically”? against religious warfare that has been created by Zionist Jews and Evangelical Christians in America that has been now institutionalized by our unconditional support of an immoral rogue state of European and American creation, the European-American Jewish colony, Israel. Israel is stuck smack in the midst of Arab Muslim Middle East, a fanatical religious colony whose soul aim it seems is to oust non-Jews from their homeland to make way for Jewish immigrants from all over the world. Israel was created by a brand-new U.N. that was totally controlled by the Big Five powers left after WW II. Israel was created by imposing the will of these Big Five powers on the U.N. to pass what would never have passed had the U.N. followed its own legal charter protecting the sovereign rights, the human rights, and national aspirations of indigenous populations. It was a crooked deal from the start, Rose, because not a single Palestinian was ever consulted and Palestinians were the majority population of Palestine since about 150 A.D. The U.N. unilaterally foisted a “homeland” for European Jewish holocaust survivors supposedly, but historically less than 3% of those holocaust survivors elected to go to Israel. The great majority of Israeli immigrants were imported from Europe and America primarily, i.e. a repeat of the European invasion of the Americas where they came in swarms like ants and with superior weapons genocided their way to power over Native America. Same with Australia and New Zealand but not with Africa where the indigenous population was still in the great majority as it is in Palestine surrounded by Arab nations housing millions of Palestinian refugees, some in their third generation now since Israeli drove them out of Palestine using terrorism tactics.

Rose, you know I have worked too long with Native Americans now to ever ever be able to justify European colonization and takeover of native populations. Yes, Native Americans haven’t a ghost of a chance to reclaim American sovereignty because their numbers are far too small now but look at Africa to see what will happen to Israel. Palestinian outnumber Israelis and always will unless total genocide is the aim of Israel which it cannot get away with in the 21st century. 60 years is not long enough for Palestinians to give up their will to reclaim their land from foreign invaders. Until Americans like you understand the will of Palestinians is the same order that one saw in Vietnam where they too had been under the thumb of foreign invaders for many decades but having the will to overcome they did despite the incredible destruction of their peoples and their land. They won in the end and threw out the foreign occupation and so will Palestinians. It is only a matter of time as Palestinians and the Arab Middle East knows.

What then, Rose? Given this reality, what then with American support of Israel? Did American support apartheid South Africa to the end? No, they pulled out when world opinion was against them and that same situation will be happening in Palestine to Israelis once Americans know what Israelis have done to Palestinians to create such lasting antagonism. Gaza is only the tip of the fascist Israeli occupation iceberg.

I hope a different U.N. today is called upon to revisit the establishment resolution of Israel and demands Israel comply with the original U.N. mandates or dissolve letting Palestine return to Palestinian majority rule.

Rose said…

Israel is the victim here, Stephen. Pure and simple. But it looks to me like they are dead – Obama’s cozying up to the other side is very troubling. They should not have agreed to a ceasefire and allowed Hamas time to rearm.

The sad thing with the Palestinians, and the Indians too, really, is all this dwelling on the past. Move forward. Be one. We’re human. Not races, and religions, Human.

The conflict will never end. You can see that by reading the blogs here. Mankind’s warring spirit is alive and well. Hatreds persist. It will never end.

Stephen said…

Once again, Rose, you spout Zionist brainwashing bullshit–“Israel is the victim here”, what planet are you pro-Israelis on, anyway?

Why is world press reporting “Israel Has Fewer Friends Than Ever, Even In America”, Rose? Is it because poor picked on Israelis behaved so splendidly or is it because the world press has been forced to look squarely at Israel’s record of grinding Palestinian society into the ground with human rights violations up the yin yang for decades and decades, add a couple of massacres on top of it, like Shantilla, and Sabra and now, Gaza?

“The conflict will never end. You can see that by reading the blogs here. Mankind’s warring spirit is alive and well. Hatreds persist. It will never end.”

Rose, it is your denial of human hope that is at the bottom of your inability to have any understanding or empathy for the victims of European racists going around the world destroying non-European societies to make way for European white people to own and control lands far from Europe. You just don’t see it. It doesn’t register on your moral radar that there’s any problem. And that is because you refuse to dig into the historical facts that create lasting hatreds between peoples. You refuse to research the historical facts that have created the Israel problem for America and the world. You will dig deep and hard for facts to use against political opponents but I really can’t see any such zeal in you for researching the history of Zionism and Israel. You rely without questioning, the information Zionists want you and Americans to know about Israel and Palestinians. You give them a blanket pass in their information with checking to see if there was another side of the story. And there was and still is.

“The sad thing with the Palestinians, and the Indians too, really, is all this dwelling on the past. Move forward. Be one. We’re human. Not races, and religions, Human.”

“Human” means to me behaving humanely. I don’t see Israelis behaving humanely, Rose, and neither does most of the world now. You and fellow Israeli supporters are getting the same cold shoulder supporters of white supremists South Afrikaaners got when it became apparent to the world, like in Palestine, that these people were racists criminals without regard to human dignity or life when it wasn’t the right color.

For Israel, it’s being the right religion to belong. I dunno, Rose, I’ve just worked too long with Native Americans to have any sympathy for racist ideologies that end up hurting large numbers of human beings. The repercussions from the Indian Island massacre period can still be actively alive in local tribes. I’ve seen it too often to ignore it with your blithe, “well, let’s all just forget the past and move on..” easily said by the winning white person but look at the lasting trouble winning has caused the lives of local tribal people. They have to deal now with these U.S. imposed Tribal Council governments which any NA will tell you never guarantees anything but eternal family feuds because the tribal identities are all mixed up and confused. That’s why the good works of one tribal council can and are regularly overturned by the next tribal council. There’s no continuity in tribal government because they’ve all lost their original tribal identities and ways of tribal leadership developed over thousands of years that worked.

Until white Americans have demonstrated their willingness to share power with non-whites as the election of Barack Obama shows a willingness to do, white Americans will continue to hold opinions of non-whites like you do, Rose, that non-whites victimized by white people need to get over themselves and plug in to white supremist rulership of their lives. Some people resist this type of racist white people winners rule ideology oddly enough..

Rose said…

Share power with non-whites???? What?

You mean condone suicide/homicides? Strapping vests on teenagers and sending them to bomb families in pizza parlors?

Sorry, Stephen. I’m not in favor of becoming a nation that endorses and tolerates honor killings, beheadings, suicide/homicide bombings, burkhas, Sharia law, and all the rest.

We stand alone as the beacon of proof that all people can live together in peace. It is very simple. Very clear.

And it is doable, as is proven by the many Palestinians and other peoples who have moved here and who live in peace and prosperity. With full rights. And no need to strap death vests on their teenage sons.

In this country, many ‘non-whites’ share power. Serve as elected officials, and in every other capacity.

And, btw, what’s with lumping ALL whites into one label anyways? You know, there are as MANY different subgroups in the ‘white’ community as there are in the ‘brown’ community. It’s only by lumping them all together into one big category that you get your tyranny.

Remember the Irish?

Do you deny that Israel only bombs in RESPONSE to repeated and unrelenting attacks? Do you think they would continue if the Palestinians honored their agreements and STOPPED killing? Honestly?

Our civilization has come to this, not because we lack fundamentally sound economic principles, nor is it because we lack military security on our borders, but because we have millions of Americans willing to sell this country’s soul out for a simple indulgence. The indulgence of having been “forgiven” for the sin of being born American: a benefactor of the sacrifices of so many others that have gone before us. The sin of having the “luck” to be born in these times: in these times of prosperity and security in the continental United States of America.

On a side note, Book often posts her conversations with fake liberals and Leftists. They are always enlightening, in one fashion or another. Her post about the AP propaganda wing of the modern mass murderers of this planet does much to explain how people like Stephen can believe what they believe. However, that is not the root cause. The root cause is this.

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